Posts on Homosexuality
From Dov Bear
Post 1Deuteronomy and Rambam say a woman can’t be king/leader, but Golda Meir was Prime Minister. Is that because Israel isn’t a halakhic state? Dina deMalkhuta Dina?
Conservative Judaism sees Halakha as binding. However, it’s sees more flexibility in what kinds of changes may be allowed. Socially, the movement is pretty assimilated, but at least in theory, the CJLS sees Halakha as binding. In short, Conservative Judaism believes Rabbis have more power to admit social changes affect halakha such as in women’s and gay’s issues. There is support for this socially, historically, halakhically if you are willing to see it. Remember, CJ is characterized by allowed secular academic research to influence halakha. (e.g. No evidence of Mehitzas until the middle ages). I think of CJ as elitist, ivory tower judaism because few people are intelligent enough to live such nuanced halakha vs. modernity lives. I’d rather skip to Reconstructinism and give the past a vote but not a veto. But then a lot of recons are weird. so I don’t identify If homosexuality is innate, biological etc, then we have the conflict that the Torah is calling a toevah something that someone is born with. Jews don’t believe in original sin. So, it must be that the Torah is talking about something else. Perhaps Toevah means an abhorred ritual practice of the surrounding nations. There’s evidence for that. In any case, the traditional understanding of the Torah seems unfair and mean to a particular sect of Jews. A good-hearted person should look for a way around it. The mitzvot were given to purify us, right? There is no halakha lemoshe misinai in the mishnah. It is a later concept. And given the amount of debate in the sources, it’s hard to believe anything could be transmitted unchanged. The sages made great changes in Jewish law in their time. Why can’t we?Post 2 Benjamin | Homepage | 03.27.06 – 6:09 pm | # The fact that something is inate, is not an argument, in of itself, for accepting it.Response 1 DovBear | 03.27.06 – 6:22 pm | # Wrong. Homosexuality and homosexual acts are different things. I love pepperoni pizza having grown up eating treif. Torah says “don’t eat pig.” I may want it, doesn’t mean I can have it. (Yes, the analogy is a stretch, but it’s late and I need to get out of here.) That a man is attracted to another man is one thing. That he acts on it is another. it’s the act that is the sin, not the desire. Your analogy to “original sin” is inapt. Jews certainly believe in the yetzer ha’ra, so one can certainly want something that the Torah prohibits.Response 2 jdub | 03.27.06 – 6:33 pm | # You want hard, by your definition, you’re talking Modern Orthodoxy. That’s nuanced halacha embracing modernity. The old joke is you have Orthodox Rabbis in conservative synagogues talking to reform Jews. Change the first part and the rest is still accurate.Response 3 jdub | 03.27.06 – 6:35 pm | # are you forcing gay men and women to be celibate or to marry against their most basic instincts? I don’t know which is more cruel.Post 3 Benjamin | Homepage | 03.27.06 – 6:40 pm | # you misunderstand. yester harah is an inclination. original sin (here) means the homosexual is born a sinner, regardless of his inclination. Thanks DovBear for the comment going against nature. It’s a good point. I suppose I am trying to have things both ways. I personally believe the Torah is just wrong on this point. But from a Halakhic point of view, as for the Conservative movement, you have to reinterpret the verse.(or laaqor iqar min haTorah) So, we say the verse talks about something else, we know gays are good people (or as good as anyone else), and voila, one problem solved, another box opened (what else can they change)Post 4 Benjamin | Homepage | 03.27.06 – 6:46 pm | # I have no yetzer ra to have gay sex but they do. that’s why I call it original sin, even though the Torah only prohibits the sex act itself. It is a “genetic/congenital” yetzer hara.Post 5 Benjamin | Homepage | 03.27.06 – 6:58 pm | # jdub: also, I can be trained to not want cheeseburgers. you can’t train a gay to not want gay sex. Ohm I don’t know. Based on experience with heterosexual marriage, I would suggest that if we allow gay marriage, it might actualy be a way to get gay men not to want gay sex! “Not tonight dear, I have a headache.”Response 4 conservatove apikoris | 03.28.06 – 7:47 am | # And that’s that. |
