Original Torah: Ancient Words in a Modern Light

Thanks, good to hear from you

-Benjamin

Sat, 05 Jan 2002 19:37:08 +0200
From: Joel Roth

Dear Ben,
The origin of dipping challah in salt is, indeed, based on exactly what
you thought.
The sticking in the earth business has to do with knives purchased from
Gentiles. It does not apply to all other metalware, and, in my opinion,
knives which really get treifed up should be kashered and not stuck in the
ground.
Joel Roth

Hey. I’ll reply to you in CAPS.

— Joel Roth wrote:
> Dear Ben,
> The origin of dipping challah in salt is,
> indeed, based on exactly what
> you thought.

RIGHT, BUT WHEN DID IT ORIGINATE AND IN WHICH
COMMUNITIES? I HAVEN’T SEEN ANY TRACES OF IT BEFORE
THE 12TH CENTURY WHILE TODAY IT IS QUITE ENTRENCHED.
DO YOU HAVE ANY SOURCE? I JUST FOUND THOSE TWO TO
SUPPORT THE PRACTICE BUT NEITHER PREDICTS IT’S
PREVALENCE. IS THERE ANY HALAKHIC DELIMITATIONS OF
HOW OR WHEN IT’S DONE? I’VE HEARD OF DIPPING OR
POURING AND EVERY MEAL OR ONLY LUNCH.

> The sticking in the earth business has to do
> with knives purchased from
> Gentiles. It does not apply to all other metalware,
> and, in my opinion,
> knives which really get treifed up should be
> kashered and not stuck in the
> ground.

THE KASHERING RE: GENTILES IS BASED ON NUMBERS
31:21-23 I BELIEVE WHICH MAKES NO MENTION OF EARTH AS
A KASHERING AGENT. I RECALL LEARNING IN MISHNAH
SUCCAH THAT THE GROUND DOESN’T RECEIVE IMPURITY, BUT I
DON’T THINK THAT RELATES TO KASHERING. ACCORDING TO
THE PRINCIPLE “KA’ASHER BOLTO POLTO” EARTH DEFINITELY
WOULDN’T WORK UNLESS THE ISSUE IS THE SPECIFIC CASE OF
COLD MILK AND COLD MEAT AND THE EARTH IS A REMINDER TO
LET IT BE “BEN YOMO” AND “NOTEIN TA’AM LIFGAM”. I
STILL CAN’T FIGURE IT OUT, SO I HAVE A FEELING IT’S A
FOLK CUSTOM WITHOUT ANY HALAKHIC BASIS. WHY ONLY
KNIVES? ARE THERE SOURCES FOR THIS? (IT SOUNDS LIKE
YOU’RE SAYING THAT KNIVES FROM NON-JEWS CAN BE
KASHERED IN EARTH AS WELL AS HOT WATER BUT OTHER
METALS ONLY IN HOT WATER. AND THEN, THAT THIS
KASHERING IS PART OF TAKING OWNERSHIP, NOT REMOVING
‘TREIFNESS’.)

Thanks for your time

take care
-Benjamin

Sat, 05 Jan 2002 19:37:08
Dear Ben,
Sorry that it took me a little time to get back to you.
On the salt issue: see Berakhot 40a and 55a, and see Shibolei
ha-Leket #141, which refers to the custom as geonic. It is also quoted
from him in Otzar Ha-geonim, Helek ha-Perushim page 55.
It was not clear to me whether you thought this was a Shabbat
practice or for every day. It is the latter.
On the sticking knives into the ground: see the last mishnah in
Avodah Zarah (75b in a gemara) and the very end of the Gemara.
Hope this helps.
Joel Roth

Hi-

I suppose logically that since the table is our altar
everyday we should add salt to our bread everyday, but
I’ve never seen anyone salt a pizza or a bagel! (or
even leftover challah)

It’s interesting that you quote the custom of salting
challah as of geonic origin since I don’t see anywhere
that Rambam mentions it. Maybe he didn’t consider it
important?

-Benjamin

AZ 5:12 “He that takes a vessel of usage (Kli
Tashmish) from a goi, that which it is his manner to
immerse, he should immerse [it]. To immerse [in
boiling water, hag'ala], he should immerse [in boiling
water]. To make white hot in the fire, he should make
white hot in the fire. The skewer and the ascala
(spit?, cf. M Pesach 74a), whiten them in the fire.
The knife, whet it (shapa) and it is clean (tahor).

[other: Shaf=threshold, Shab 75b; la-shuf=to
rub,le-shafshef 80a; lishpot, Shab 102b=put down]

AZ 76b (as it absorbs so it expells). “The knife, whet
it (shafa) and it is clean (tahor).”
Said Rav Uqva bar Hama: And drive it 10 times in the
ground. Said Rav Huna son of Rav Yehoshua: and in
ground that is not worked. Said Rav Kahana: and with
a nice knife that has no pits. It was taught also
thusly: A nice knife that has no pits he drives into
the ground 10 times. Said Rav Huna son of Rav
Yehoshua: To eat with, [clean] in cold water. For
that which Mar Yehuda and Bati bar Tuvi were sitting
before Shebor the king, they brought before him an
etrog, he stopped, ate, stopped, and gave it to Bati
bar Tuvi, returned [detza] 10 times in the ground,
stopped, give it to Mar Yehuda. Said to him Bati bar
Tuvi: and that man is he not an Israelite. He said to
him: Mar keeps it for me in his body [kiyem li
be-gavya] and mar doesn’t keep it for me in his body.
There are those that say: He said to him: Did you
remember how it went in the evening?

————–
translation at

http://www.jewishgates.org/taland/talmud/calendar/etrog.stm

Mar Judah and Bati b. Tobi were sitting with King
Shapur and an etrog was set before them. [The king]
cut a slice and ate it, and then cut a slice and
handed it to Bati b. Tobi. After that he stuck [the
knife] ten times in the ground, cut a slice [of the
etrog] and handed it to Mar Judah.

Bati b. Tobi said to [the king], ‘Am I not an
Israelite!’

He replied, ‘Of him I am certain that he is observant
[of Jewish law] but not of you.’

According to another version he said to him, ‘Remember
what you did last night!’
——————-

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:ZAptVQyPogUC:home.nyu.edu/~asr209/basar.doc+knife+76b+gemara&hl=en

Avoda Zara (76b) – a knife, if it is smooth and has no
holes or indentations in it, can be made kosher by
being whet and stuck ten times into unworked ground
(this allows one to use it for cold foods)

Rashi – in order to use it for hot foods it
requires hag’alah before being stuck into the ground

Tosafot – the Yerushalmi only requires three
times, but it seems that this gemara means ten
literally (and not just some number) and one should
thus be strict; argues with Rashi and claims, as per
the Tosefta, than libun is needed in order to use the
knife with hot foods; Rabbeinu Tam says that when the
absorbed food is an issur then libun is needed, but
otherwise hag’alah suffices
Rosh – uses the Yerushalmi to claim that the
number ten in the gemara is lav davka; rules that we
either need to whet the knife or to stick it in the
ground, but there is no need for both Rif – claims
that the number ten in the gemara is lav davka, and
the point is simply to get off any issur that is on
the knife

Rambam (Hilchot Ma’achalot Assurot 9:24) – if one cuts
roasted meat with a knife and then cuts a radish with
the same knife he may not eat that radish (or other
charif food) with kutach; however, if instead of a
radish he cuts a gourd or some other non-sharp food
then it may be eaten with dairy (Hilchot Ma’achalot
Assurot 17:7-8) – if one buys a knife from a non-Jew
then he either does libun on it or whets it and he
can use it; if the knife is unblemished then he can
stick it into hard earth ten times instead; if he did
shechita before purifying it then he either washes off
or peels the point of shechita and all is fine; if one
slaughters a treifah he should not use that knife
again, even for cold things, until he washes it or
wipes it with rags

Sefer HaTerumah (59-60) – one should not cut onions or
garlic with a dairy knife if he wants to put them into
meat, and if he does so then rinsing them will not
suffice; if they are put into a boiling pot then the
amount of dairy that is absorbed can be batel
b’shishim, although if one cuts them with a knife of
non-Jews then it can only be batel b’shishim if there
is sixty times in the pot as much as the entire onion
or garlic

(70-71) – a knife that was used for the shechita
of a treifah can be used again after being rinsed or
wiped off, but if a knife of a non-Jew is used it
needs hag’alah first (and if it is used without
getting hag’alah or something else done to it first
then one has to do klipa on the food that is cut with
it); if one wants to cut cold cheese with a meat knife
or vice versa then he first has to stick it into the
ground ten times; there is a debate if hag’alah or
libun is needed in order to allow one to use such a
knife to cut hot foods

Torat HaBayit (4:1 3b) – a radish cut with a knife of
a non-Jew needs netila in order to be eaten (opinion
of Ra’avad), although Rashba himself would incline
towards making it completely assur were it not for
this view

Bedek HaBayit – objects to the notion that sharp
foods can cause b’lia and haflata when cold, and
claims that the only issue with them is that they
would need netila; rejects the notion that salting is
tantamount to cooking; rejects the idea that we can
invoke the principle of batel b’shishim by salting,
since even by a pot of hot food we only invoke this if
it is stirred and covered

Mishmeret HaBayit – forbids using garlic in
dairy foods if it is ground in a meat mill, and
forbids using garlic at all if it is ground in a mill
of non-Jews; objects to many of the statements of the
Bedek HaBayit

Torat HaBayit (4:4 33b) – sticking a knife into the
ground is sufficient in any case where it was used
for cold foods; if it was used for hot foods then
Rashbam says that it needs libun, whereas Rabbeinu Tam
says that if the knife belonged to non-Jews then it
needs libun (since it absorbed an issur), whereas if
it belonged to Jews then it only needs hag’alah (since
it absorbed a heter); regarding a knife used for
shechita, whether or not it can be used for other
foods depends on whether or not one thinks that the
makom shechita is considered to be boiling

Tur (Y.D. 96) – if one cuts a radish or onion or other
sharp food with a meat knife it is assur to eat that
food with milk until the place where the cut was made
is peeled off or until it is tasted and is found to
not tastelike meat; the Sefer HaTerumah says that this
issur applies even to a knife that is not a ben yomo;
if one went ahead and cooked the radish in milk then it needs
to be batel b’shishim as per the amount of issur in
the radish (i.e. the size of the knife); however, if the knife was
one of a non-Jew then it needs to be batel b’shishim
as per the size of the entire radish; Maharam MiRutenberg was
lenient unless the knife was a ben yomo, but he
refrained from ruling publicly this way; if one cuts gourds with
a meat knife it can be eaten with milk if the place of
the cut is scraped, and if he cuts a turnip then all he
needs to do is wash it off Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 96) – a radish or beets or other
sharp foods that are cut with a meat knife
that is a ben yomo may not be eaten with milk
until there is netila at the point where the cut took
place or they are tasted to ascertain that they do not taste like
meat; if one did not do this and cooked them with milk
anyway then they need to be batel b’shishim as per the amount
absorbed from the knife (and the same goes for a knife
of a non-Jew); if spices are ground in a meat mill
that it a ben yomo then it is assur to eat them with
milk; lemon juice or small salted fish that are brought by non-Jews
are mutar; if one cuts gourds with a meat knife then
he can eat it with milk if he scrapes off the area where the
cut took place; if he cuts a turnip with a meat knife
then he only has to rinse it off before eating it with milk, and
if he cuts a radish after the turnip with that knife
then the radish only needs to be rinsed, since the turnip has already
affected the taste that was on the knife

Ramo – if the radish is cut finely then it has to
be batel b’shishim as per the entire radish;
there are those who say that if one cuts a
radish with a knife of issur that the entire radish
becomes assur; if one cuts the green top off of the radish
then none of this applies; if there is a safek as to
whether a knife of issur was used then we can be lenient; it is
mutar to use ground spices that are ground by a
non-Jew since they have separate mills for them; the
reason for the heter for lemon juice and cut up fish
is that since they are brought in large quantities, the first
few, which would be assur, are batel in all of the
rest, which are mutar due to the fact that the taste on the knives
are batel by the first few and thus there is
eventually no problem with the knives; things that are not charif,
such as apples, can certainly be eaten; the heter by a
turnip is specific to turnips and does not apply to
bread or other things; even if a turnip is used, the
heter only applies for the next cut made, but if one wants to
continue cutting radishes he would have to cut the
turnip each time

Shach – even if the knife is wiped clean, the
sharpness of the food and the pressure of the
knife cause the knife to spit out any flavor
that is contained within it; something that makes
something assur due to it sharpness only makes it assur to
the level of klipa; even though Tur and Rashba claim
that one can eat such foods if they are tasted to ensure
that there is no meat taste, the Shach forbids eating
foods via tasting l’chatchila; there is a debate
concerning the status of a knife that is not a ben
yomo – do we treat it as a ben yomo when it cuts something charif or
not?; if the knife is smaller than the radish then
even if the radish is chopped into small pieces we only
need it to be batel b’shishim as per the knife and not
as per the radish; however, if the knife belonged to a
non-Jew then even if the radish is bigger we need to
estimate batel b’shishim as per the entire radish
since we invoke chaticha atzma na’aseit neveilah; the
tails of garlic and onions are also not considered charif and
thus only need klipa; Semag rules that if one grinds
ginger with a knife of a non-Jew it is mutar even if the
ginger was moist; in terms of the lemon juice case,

Bach explains that we only say that the sharpness of the
food revives the fat absorbed into the knife in the
case of chiltit, but we do not invoke such a principle by
lemons, and thus the fat on the knife wipes off on the
first few lemons and then all is well; the Sefer
HaTerumah says that it is assur anyway; scarping is
less than klipa

Taz – based on the Shulchan Aruch, there is only
a problem with a knife that is either a ben yomo or that is not wiped from the meat;
the Torat Chatat rules that we are no longer experts
in terms of tasting for these matters; the Sefer
HaTerumah rules that anything charif has the status of
chiltit and makes something assur even if it is not a ben
yomo; when a radish is finely chopped we need it to be
batel b’shishim as per the entire knife since we do not know
exactly which part of the knife touched the radish;
even though everyone agrees that we say chaticha atzma
na’aseit neveilah by basar b’chalav, that is only when
there is an inherent issur involved, but since that is
not the case by the knife here we can suffice with
making it batel b’shishim; if onions are cut with an assur
knife then we invoke chaticha atzma na’aseit neveilah
and even if there is enough in the pot for batel
b’shishim, we still need to remove the onions; since
there are those other than the Shulchan Aruch who hold chaticha
atzma na’aseit neveilah for things other than basar
b’chalav, if a radish is cut finely with an assur knife
then it becomes assur and requires bittul b’shishim;
Levush writes that for a meat knife we need the knife itself to
be batel b’shishim, whereas for a knife of issur the
entire radish needs to be batel b’shishim, although the
Shach disagrees with this view; borscht is considered
to be something charif; the Torat Chatat writes
that if one inadvertently cuts a worm when he cuts
open a fruit then there is only a need for klipa

Tur (Y.D. 94) – Rabbeinu Peretz notes that there are
those who hold that klipa is sufficient if one

cuts hot meat with a milk knife, claiming it to
be similar to the place of shechita; however, he
rejects this comparison
and says that in such a situation everything is
assur unless the knife can be batel b’shishim; if the
knife is not a ben
yomo (or if it unknown whether or not it is a ben
yomo) then there is still a need for klipa

Beit Yoseif – the need for batel b’shishim as per
the entire knife is based on the principle

of cham miktzato cham kulo; those who do not
hold this say that there is only a need for batel
b’shishim as per
the part of the knife that cut the meat

Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 94:7) – if hot meat is cut with a
milk knife then the entire piece of meat is

assur unless there is sixty times as much meat as
the location on the knife that cut it; if the knife is
not a ben yomo,
or if it is unknown whether or not it is a ben
yomo, then all that is needed is klipa

Tur (Y.D. 121) – old knives that are bought form
non-Jews can be used for cold foods if they are

stuck into hard ground ten times or whetted using
professional tools; each time that it is stuck into
the ground it has to
be stuck into a different spot; Rashi says that
one needs to do both things, but this does not seem to
be correct;
Rashba claims that this works even if one wants
to cut something charif; if one wants to use the knife
for hot foods
then hag’alah is needed; however, if the knife
have depressions in it then it cannot be used at all
until libun is done on
it; there are those who say that libun is needed
even if the knife is fine, so long as it is small (and
thus may be used
to turn over meat on the fire)

Beit Yoseif – the general trend among Rishonim is
that whetting the knife works only for

using it for cold foods, but Rambam allows
it to work even for hot foods; based on Tosafot, it
seems that if
one wants to use this knife for hot foods he
would need libun (and not hag’alah, as per the Tur)

Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 121:7) – an old knife of any size
that is bought from a non-Jew needs to be

stuck into the ground ten times (a different spot
every time) in order to be used for cold foods; this
applies to using it
for something charif as well; if it has
depressions in it or if one wants to use it for hot
foods or for shechita then libun
or whetting with professional tools is needed

Beit Yoseif (end of Y.D. 89) – if a servant touches
food at the meal there is no need for netila,

since we only apply such a concept when food
touches other food, and not when a person touches food

Shut Sho’el U’Meishiv (4:3:91) – explains the lenient
stance on a davar charif that is dry by

saying that in general by something that is
charif we say that notein ta’am bar notein ta’am is
assur since the
sharpness revives the flavor, but if the food is
dry then very little taste, if any, comes out, and it
is thus notein ta’am
bar notein ta’am l’heteira (see inside for
further analysis)

Shut Arugat HaBosem (Y.D. 1:93) – Rav Akiva Eiger
writes that tasting the radish may not work

since it is possible that the taste was absorbed
into a different part of the radish; carrying this
idea out, if one were to
taste the entire length of the radish, that would
result in a de facto klipa! He concludes that tasting
only works in a
case where the radish is cut in half and one
tastes one side and can thus assume that any taste
that is there is on the
other side as well

Dear Ben,
You cetainly seem to have done some extensive research on sticking
knives into the ground. Kol ha-Kavod. I haven’t had time to read it
all yet, but have printed it out and will get to it.
Joel Roth